AGCO ramps up its tax campaign

Comments

14 responses to “AGCO ramps up its tax campaign”

1. 

   July 21, 2012

   Jon

   Well Geoff we’re all obviously barking up the wrong tree then arnt we? If we get any sort of VAT reduction it obviously going to have a negative effect on us. Think I’d better forget all about it then.

   Just one more thing about all the comments about here say, rumours misinformation etc, all the facts and figures about other clubs accounts and what they do or do not pay in tax have come from official club accounts submitted to HMRC.
   So if there is any mIsinformation, it isn’t on my part.

   Reply
2. 

   July 21, 2012

   Geoff Duffell

   This is all very amusing really. I only wanted to explain to the owners of prop. clubs that they were only being told half of the story. If HMRC decided to apply the rules on vat that apply to private clubs any benefit they received would be minimal. I’m sure their barristers will explain it to them eventually.

   Reply
3. 

   July 21, 2012

   Alistair Dunsmuir

   * calm not alm

   Reply
4. 

   July 21, 2012

   Alistair Dunsmuir

   Hi all – I take Brian and Mork’s points on board.

   We have done a lot of tax stories over the last few months, and the results of the Bridport (due v soon) and Chipping Sodbury cases will be massive stories that we will cover. Maybe we will alm it down a bit.

   Having said that we do get more demand and information for tax stories from readers than any other topic, and thanks to Google Analyitcs, we know the tax stories are very well read (basically anything to do with the power list, tax or Groupon gets about 20 times as many hits as anything else!)

   Alistair Dunsmuir

   Reply
5. 

   July 21, 2012

   Jon

   I think your all being a bit hypocritical here. Peter, if it’s tedious then don’t read it or better still don’t post anything about it then these discussions do not take place.
   To be honest with you Brian, I’m not bothered why Viven Saunders wrote anything about you, yes you may think these articles are boring but to be honest I’m bored of you whining on for an apology every time you see her name mentioned Which looking back through the stories, you do seem to add your comments every time it is.

   Reply
6. 

   July 20, 2012

   Brian Inglis

   It’s hard to disagree that this constant re-hashing of basically the same story is becoming a shade tiresome and perhaps Alistair and his team should consider scaling the coverage back a bit, thereby making the more newsworthy pieces surrounding this crusade a bit more interesting. I really do admire the energy and passion being put into this, but it’s not news every week surely. A huge amount of mis-information and a tendency for people to pass off their opinion as fact isn’t all that helpful either.

   To sum up the trite nature of this article – “I am contemplating withholding VAT to force HM Revenue and Custom’s [HMRC] hand,” she said. Yes…..good luck with that…..

   It’s difficult for me to be objective at times as I have such a low regard for the persona which is Vivien Saunders, someone I’ve never met but an individual who recently took it upon herself to publicly disparage me and a former employer of mine, whose relationship with HMRC she felt entitled to call into question. She subsequently saw fit to advise clubs against using my services, which many of my colleagues agreed was crass in the extreme. I thought so too, but have given up hope of an apology although I was advised by many not to expect one.

   Before someone anonymous follows and tells me to “Get over it”, just consider whether Vivien Saunders wrote what she did about me because she thought it was acceptable or because she didn’t expect to be taken to task for it.

   Reply
7. 

   July 20, 2012

   Mork

   Your right it is tedius its time this blog stopped printing posts about it now some people just cut and pasteing things without knowing the facts and all being led on by V Saundars. Good stuff on here being ignored because of it too so come mods ditch the tax stories!

   Reply
8. 

   July 20, 2012

   Peter

   1.I am available for tax advice if you struggle to tell the difference between VAT and Corporation tax!
   2. Please withdraw your comments that private clubs are acting illegally unless you have evidence.Tax evasion is a very serious allegation. If you have specific evidence it is of course your public duty to present this to the tax authorities.
   3. One can only become a CASC and get the rates reduction if the beneficial ownership is dealt with as I previously pointed out. It appears that you committee members acquaintances have been a little limited in the facts they have provided you with.

   Finally I dont think that members’ clubs are worried about profit making operations at all. It is just this constant whining based on half truths that is a bit tedious.

   Reply
9. 

   July 20, 2012

   Jon

   Yes Peter I am involved with a club that is trading at a profit, and I am totally focused on my club and business. From the information I have seen I am definitely not misrepresenting any facts.

   In response to your facts:

   1: Very few clubs have paid any corporation tax to allow them to claim any VAT back. HMRC are well aware of this.

   2: If open comps do not create revenue then why do some clubs hold up to 5 a month? Judging by what some clubs declare on their annual accounts I wonder why they bother doing anything. Accounts are freely available to all on companycheck. One club declares taking over £800k in visitors fees, but didn’t pay any tax on it as they lost money taking those visitors. That, which ever way you look at it, is tax evasion.

   3: There are many clubs claiming CASC, many of them neighbouring me. I know for a fact this is simply to reduce their rates bills. I know this to be true because I have been told face to face by their committee members that was the only reason to do so.

   This matter is well and truly in the public eye at the moment so we’ll see what the courts and HMRC decide. What I don’t really understand though is, if proprietary clubs get a VAT reduction why are ‘private’ clubs so fussed about it? Unless of course they are very worried about it or maybe its just incase the taxman comes knocking.

   Reply
10. 

    July 20, 2012

    Peter

    One assumes that Jon has a stake in a club traded for profit. Perhaps if he focuses on his own business rather than misrepresenting the facts about others he might prospers better.
    Fact 1. If a recovery of VAT is made as a result of the Bridport case, there will be a substantial clawback of associated input VAT from those clubs that make a successful claim.
    Fact 2 tax is payable on profits not income. Most clubs holding Open competitions do not make a significant if any surplus on them.
    Fact 3. Any club participating in the CASC scheme must amend its constitution to reflect the fact that any surplus of assets on winding up of the club will be paid to a registered charity or sports club. I am sure that if AGCO members eschew dividends and place their shareholdings in trusts with similar terms that they could choose to convert to a Community Amateur Sports Club.

    Reply
11. 

    July 20, 2012

    Jon

    Judging from your previous posts Geoff I would hazard a guess that you where in some way connected with a ‘private’ members club? You do seem to be very much against any change to the system. Is there any reason for this?

    Reply
12. 

    July 20, 2012

    Jon

    And I suppose you two both think its OK for private clubs to take as many visitors as possible and to make them ‘temporary members’ for the day thus avoid paying any tax on income?

    And there’s nothing wrong with 380 golf clubs claiming CASC( http://www.cascinfo.co.uk/cascbenefits/golfclubregistrations)
    after all they must deserve an 80% reduction on their business rates.

    And of course all clubs should be entitled to hold a a few open comps every month and the proceeds of which should not be taxable.

    And all clubs do deserve a share of the estimated £300 million they are trying to claim back through the Bridport and West Dorset case. Despite most not having paid any corporation tax or VAT in the first place.

    The only people who think this system is fair are connected in some way to a private members golf club. Everyone else thinks its unfair and wrong.

    Geoff, you claim that, Irrecoverable VAT is added to the members subs? So that would surely mean any monies taken would surely be knocked off the members subs? Sort of like a dividend? Which is exactly the argument with HMRC.

    Reply
13. 

    July 19, 2012

    Geoff Duffell

    Well said Peter. AGCO pays for these expensive barristers to argue half the case. Or are they really ignorant that private clubs have an overhead called irrecoverable vat, you can rest assured that HM Rev &Customs know about it.
    For those that are ignorant of it.. Add up total input vat on operating costs and then realise only approx30% can be recovered. The rest has to be added to members subs.

    Reply
14. 

    July 19, 2012

    Peter

    Dont forget that these clubs will be getting a full recovery on their input VAt. Private members clubs suffer significant irrecoverable VAT as a result of their partial exemption. To headline the argument as being a 20% difference is fallacious. But hey, never let the truth get in the way of a good story!

    Reply